Burning Questions - 04/05

Hello, and welcome back to Burning Questions, your weekly exploration of the hottest topics in Marvel Snap. This week, we're discussing the recent OTA balance changes, a new card, and a couple of familiar early series cards.

1) Is Thanos dead? Did Second Dinner just make him into ‘big Quicksilver?’

He's not dead, but he's definitely on vacation from the top. Thanos was previously so strong that he's likely still a pretty playable B-tier deck with Mockingbird, some other big cards, and Caiera. He can still put out some big stats; he's just not as nimble as before, and that's the point. He's not so efficient anymore that he can play every tech card like Mobius M Mobius and Shang Chi while also playing luxury cards like Vision with no downside. Most decks can't afford to squeeze in Mobius and play him on curve every game. Most non-lockdown decks can't afford to play a 5-8 Vision on turn 5 and expect to win. Now Thanos can't either. However, the main takeaway from the developer patch notes is this:

This is temporary.

The team could not have made it clearer that this is an in-between state while they pursue a larger rework of Thanos. Thanos has been sent to limbo.

“This is the first stage of a larger range of adjustments we're going to make to the Thanos and Infinity Stones package.”

When and what will these changes be? I would not expect additional changes to Thanos with the patch on April 9th, as they likely would make all the changes they were ready to make at once.

“We are pursuing changes to more than one of the Stones, but because we're not ready to execute on those just yet we're taking an even heavier hand with the Time Stone for now.”

So, some changes to the stones are still in the works. Even the current Time Stone change appears to be temporary. Perhaps this means they haven't finalized a plan, or perhaps it means the changes are going to come along with some VFX tweaks. They might make it by the April 30th patch.

I hope the Time Stone change hints at the nature of changes to come. I think a change so that the stones all have more direct synergy with Thanos would be very cool (yes, they can keep their draw power then). The Space Stone could grant Thanos Jeff's ability. The Soul Stone could turn Thanos into a supercharged version of evolved Cyclops. The fact that Thanos has been an afterthought in his own deck has been an issue for his entire existence in Snap. This would also necessitate a change to the new location, Sanctuary II. Whether or not this is the direction the balance team chooses, I expect whatever changes they have in store to lead to a top-tier deck, just not one that gobbles up every new card that gets released. Thanos is such an important character, both in the Marvel Universe and within Snap, that I expect he will be very powerful in the near future.

2) Has the Chavez rework been successful?

America Chavez is currently sitting at a 4.12% play rate, ranking 105th among all cards, and has a drawn win rate of 54.8, which is good for 112th overall (dropping to 171st when played). The change to Angela probably threatens her play rate a bit more; I don't think they'll see too much play together, and Angela may replace her in a few lists in which she's currently the 12th card. The swap they did with Forge and Chavez left us with two cards that aren't as good as Forge was prior.

America Chavez

Forge Card History

Her stats aren't terrible, and Chavez has been a perfectly reasonable Marvel Snap card since she was put at 1-cost. I think that would probably be sufficient for most cards. However, given the prominence Chavez had before, I don't think it is enough. When Chavez was one of the most important cards in the game, people spent a lot of resources splitting her and have some pretty elaborate splits. People bought variants because she was an important card. I think that is significant. If that means she needs to be ‘overclocked’ a bit, then so be it. If she needs to be reworked again to be relevant, then do that. America Chavez should be an important card in our collections, not just another card.

3) Is Crossbones better than Cull Obsidian now?

With the recent buff to Crossbones, he and Cull Obsidian find themselves with the same stat line.

The developer notes claimed,

“There's been a lot of debate around which downside is stronger or weaker between Crossbones and Cull Obsidian–we've decided to let you all settle it in the streets.”

Not to spoil the journey, but Cull's downside is weaker, and Cull is the stronger card. Cull's hurdle is so small it may as well be invisible. I don't think anyone will cut Cull for Crossbones anytime soon, and if you opened caches or tokens on Cull, you can still feel pretty good about it. Crossbones can still feel pretty awkward. One of the obvious synergies with him, Alioth, often feels like anti-synergy in actual practice since you occasionally end up forced into a single powerful lane when you need two going into the last turn.

However, I do think Crossbones has real potential. If Crossbones sees a significant amount of play, it will likely be done alongside Cull Obsidian. They share a remarkable amount of allies. Cards that work well with our new 10s include Squirrel Girl, War Machine, and Zabu. Armor can protect both, and both discount Skaar. Both can help grab priority to follow up with priority rewards like Negasonic Teenage Warhead, Juggernaut, and Alioth. Crossbones’ buff was significant, and Cull remains a good card, even outside of Thanos's decks.

4) Q: In the past, when there has been discussions about some of the design philosophies of Marvel Snap, the team has talked about how Snap should be played like two people building sandcastles and seeing which one is better. According to public tracking information, Shang-Chi is currently the most played card in post-infinite ranks and in infinite conquest. He is notably a card that is not about building up your side of the board, but about stopping the opponent's game plan. Are there any considerations of a nerf to Shang-Chi due to Snap's design philosophy?

A: Being "about building sand castles" doesn't mean we want to totally avoid cards that kick a bit. American football is about scoring touchdowns, but that doesn't mean it should ban tackling, as a hyperbolic example.

The existence of Shang-Chi (and Enchantress, Luke Cage, Mobius, etc.) is an important part of the "sand castle ecosystem." If one powerful thing lacks meaningful opposition, all of the powerful things that are opposed become much less viable. By being very good against simple big cards--a fundamentally strong thing to rely on in SNAP--Shang-Chi creates space for more decks to win without big cards, or even just to deploy them in a larger variety of ways.

-Glenn

***Glenn is correct in noting that many people take the ‘sand castle doctrine’ a little too far. It doesn't mean there should be no interaction. Think of healthy interaction as knocking a turret off your opponent’s sand castle, while unhealthy interaction is blowing up your opponent’s entire sand castle with an M-80. I think Snap has too little interaction, not too much. Ideally, I think it would be like the choreography in a Jet Li movie with rapid-fire punches, blocks, kicks, and dodges.

That being said, I don't agree with Glenn that Shang Chi is adequately fulfilling his role. Right now, he is the singular choice to knock down a major part of your opponent’s sand castle. Many players would like to see him deleted, but that would lead to a far worse situation. What Shang needs is meaningful competition. There need to be cards that can be seriously considered for a deck slot over Shang. Cannonball is a card that came reasonably close to being an alternative in a few very specific builds. What we need is about six more cards like Cannonball or cards that can fulfill a similar role of creating space for decks to win without big cards. First, making Shang Chi cost 5 would be a great start. I would love to see what happens to the game with Shang at a different cost, and I think it's worth exploring. Second, you can buff cards like Spider-Man 2099 to be archetype-specific Shang competitors, like Cannonball, which is kind of for clog decks. A Spider-Man 2099 that targets the highest power card and can kill each time it moves would be a compelling design.

Third, alternative ways to disrupt big card strategies, like maybe something like Aero or Stegron that only moves big cards or a card with a temporary Goose effect, could work in tandem with destroy effects. Adding good, strong cards that can duck Shang Chi would also help. Shang is the tech card of choice because big card strategies are so strong, but it wasn't that long ago that Shadow King was taking Shang’s spot in some decks. Cards like Rogue (please buff) and Enchantress only become competitors in certain metagames. We don't have a rapid-fire martial arts battle; it's a slow-paced slap fight with one big slap (Shang) and one really big slap (Alioth). I believe the team can come up with something more creative and interactive.***

5) Q: When you made Baron Zemo, did you test him in decks like Youndu, Cable, Gladiator, (similar deck disturbance) plus Absorbing Man, Iron Lad, Beast (do it again)? It's not fun being out of cards on turn 4.

Not sure how viable the decks are, but in a 12 deck game I feel you have added to many cards that steal/destroy cards in the opponent's deck.

A: Yes, these were among our best-performing Zemo decks. We think the number is certainly high now, and it's another way to play, but there are many archetypes it is not effective against.

-Glenn

***Having played with and against the aggressive ‘mill’ deck with Zemo going around, I think the team has hit the nail on the head with Zemo balance-wise. The card is sufficiently strong that it is fueling an entirely new archetype. While running your opponent out of cards in other card games has always been a bit of an annoying archetype to face, the Zemo deck hasn't felt too oppressive. As Glenn notes, there are enough decks that aren't overly bothered by it. Some archetypes can brush it off better than others. I have won several games this season with no cards in deck and hand by the end of the game. Because Snap has such small decks, the benefit of having your deck thinned balances out some of the damage done by missing a draw on the last couple turns in a way that is very unique to Snap. While being the core of a B-tier deck might not seem sufficient for a season pass card, Zemo has enough utility in other decks to make up for that. Overall I think they nailed Zemo and this is one of the most successful releases Second Dinner has had recently.

That's it for this week! Find me on Twitter if you've got a Burning Question! Join in on the conversation in the comments or head to the official Marvel Snap discord and submit a question in the ask-the-team channel to try to get your question featured here.

Also, I will be covering this awesome event on April 6th! Come out if you're in the area.

📡 Reaching out to all Tri-state and the surrounding areas #MARVELSNAP Enjoyers! Powered by myself and @SinoMontana of the @MSnapcast is a fun event happening at @BrookLAN_NY on 4/6/2024 at 2PM!
Tournament + Meet-Up!
Get your Ticket down below 👇🏾 and we will see you there! pic.twitter.com/OWCEuz1vXn

— Ken (@SuperTechGod) March 17, 2024